I trust children to be children. I trust in experience and what experience teaches .

Another question I have about un-schooling is what happen to the underpriveledged child who can not get to the resources or technology or afford a parent to stay home with them and un-school.
One last question-how long does it take an un-schooled child to adapt themselves to the work force where they will not be allowed the freedom of learning that they are used to?

Marshall- Great reference to the ‘Ten Commandments’. If you look at anything in the world there is always a guide.

I just wanted to add another blog for your reference that helped me. The word used there was “empowerment” and they speak of similar information. I think we both are trying o empower our kids – and our students, but we have a difference of opinion in where the guidance lies. Check out http://www.leadertalk.org/2008/05/is-teaching-a-p.html?cid=113768488#comment-113768488 to see if that clarifies or muddies the conversation.

I absolutely agree with what you say about them learning from experience. That is without question the best teacher, and I applaud your eloquence in saying so. My children have, and do, continue to do much as you have explained above, and that is a wonderful feeling – them learning based on realistic consequences. I have children that are both intellectual and stubborn, and failing (I truly mean A kids getting a big fat F in a class) has taught them responsibility. Wanting to jump in to “save” them was there, but the power was in the result. Maybe I am just stuck on the concept of oblivious trust first, and will this work with all kids second. I don’t agree that kids will always model adult behavior (street crossing) as I consistently watch 6-8 year old fly past my house on a bicycle not once looking for traffic at an intersection. If they ultimately do get hit by a car, my confidence is that they will learn to look better the next time……IF they get that chance. Do I take this chance and not tell them and show them the negative effects of ignoring traffic. To me, not worth the risk. Here is maybe a bigger topic, and I’ll just let you reflect on what you tell your kids about talking with, accepting gifts, and going places with “strangers” they may encounter. How do you approach that concept? I’ll tell you again that I respect your views and this is helping me assess my parenting, so understand that although I would like to “challenge” your stated philosophical lines and thinking, it is so I am better able to understand and learn from your examples.

Jon – ditto on the thanks for space. Please join in, it was your master mind that sparked our interest!

I think there is a subtle difference between the two points.

Unschoolers do get to decide when they learn math. So let’s say its not until they are thirteen they decide to learn math — that’s ok. They learn it and they don’t need the eight years of public school math to catch up. I know a fourth grader who was unschooled and entered public schools and caught up to her peers with a month or two.
You don’t have to limit junk food because they will learn to limit themselves. Eat junk food all day and you feel yuck, so you don’t do it again. You don’t have to teach walking across street. The child is with you all their early life as you do it and then they model that behavior.
Again, if you start trusting someone who has never been trusted, there will be a huge explosion. They might sit on the couch all day eating gummie worms. But eventually get off their butt. The longer they have been schooled, the longer they need to get unschooled. I do believe in guidance. I do believe in letting them her their wisdom, I do believe in letting them fall.
Here is a very simple example…maybe too basic. Let’s say you give your kid $20 to buy a memento from vacation. They walk into a store and buy $20 of icecream. You want with all your heart to say how ridiculous it is but let them make the choice. The get sick, it melts all over, and they have nothing to bring home. Or…and this one is from personal experience…they keep buying cheap plastic junk that breaks before they get home. After a few years they have learned their lesson — they make the choice to stop, they are not following their orders.
Alot of times with trusting their decisions you have to search your soul for where your rule comes from. Let’s say you have a big ol piece of ice cream cake left over and they want to eat it after breakfast. Do you let them? Why not? Who made the rule that you should only have something like that for dessert after diner. Who made the rule that socks should match? or that pants should match shirts? I brought my five year old out the other day after she dressed herself — mismatched striped socks, floral dress, striped jacket — all choosen because she wanted to be flashy. Every cell in my body wanted her to go back and change. We went out to the store and so many people stopped to talk to her and said such lovely things about her flashy style. Someday I am sure that she will be a little more concerned about matching..but I’ll let her figure out when that should be.

Alright — I am not really a writer, hard to make my point in a comment box.

Jon, thanks for letting Marshall and I use your blog

In some ways I think we are saying the same thing with different phrases – re-read my post if you will.

How about the ten rules (which are sometimes called Commandments) that God laid on his children. Do you think He doesn’t trust us, or do you think we need some concrete guidance?

In addition, for our own kids, things like: Don’t cross the street, limited junk food/drink, and respect of others. Does this seem like things we could “teach” without any regret?

When I say “totally trust” I have images of totally trusting my children to decide when they should learn to drive (Ouch may be more literal on that one), deciding that they don’t need to learn math at all (who needs to add anyway?), and watching “The Girls Next Door” into the wee hours of the night (hey, they need to learn about the ladies, right). Each one has a pretty easy answer if you “trust” them to do the right thing, but is this really what you mean? I guess I would say that yes, partially trusting them to understand the outcomes of their actions is where I may fall on the spectrum.

I’ll hang on your every word, Paul. I’m enjoying the conversation a lot – you are causing me to think out my emotions and quantify my beliefs. Thanks.

If you have brought your child up in an environment in which they are trusted, and allowed to make decisions, you will be amazed at their ability to make the right choices. What people will do when they here about true unschooling is say that a child can’t make the choices without the wisdom of an adult. If a child is being raised to think on their own in the presence of an adult who imparting their wisdom along the way, you will be amazed.
Marshall…just so I have something to work with instead of making stuff up, give me three rules that are necessary.

I think Jon made my argument for me – we need to have some rules in order to teach children. Yes, I said “teach” them. IMHO, we go beyond what is appropriate when Paul states, “The number one thing one needs to do in unschooling is to totally and completely trust the child.” Whoa….. even Jon, in agreement uses the phrases “well, within reason” and “Our only role is to decide which foods are appropriate.” and “we simply advise” in his approach to totally and completely trusting the child. I trust my kids too, but I also know that they do need some guidance that my excessive years may provide. I would think that when Jon does “chicken out in the end” it won’t be to follow sheep, it will be to provide the best options for his children. It’s easy to see you are a good dad, and you are looking for the balance of experiential learning and safety.

We have, to this point, tried dearly not to baby our baby. We trust him, entirely (well, within reason). For instance, a nutritionist once told us that the child determines how much s/he eats and when s/he eats. Our only role is to decide which foods are appropriate and to provide choices. That has worked beautifully. That holds true in other areas as well. He decides; we simply advise. It’s exhausting, but I feel really good about it.

So, my interest in unschooling stems from there. I want my child to decide his learning path and trajectory. Again, I’ll probably chicken out in the end…and follow the other sheep!

The unschooling way of learning is such a paradigm(right word?) shift in thinking that any one who was a product of the system would have trouble wrapping the heads around it. Especially anyone who liked school. I think it is nearly impossible for a true blue teacher to make the shift to unschooling. It goes against everything that they have experienced and do in a classroom. The number one thing one needs to do in unschooling is to totally and completely trust the child.

(pause for effect)

Can your child decide what to eat, when to go to bed, what to do during the day, where to go…
Almost everyone’s initial response would be no because we have been programed to believe that we need to teach children–we follow certain rules that under closer examination are totally arbitrary. The problem with deciding to unschool a child at an age other than birth is that is requires a period of time to re-program yourself, and the child.